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...also couldn't you just forward the email to friends and family that are going and each person download their own ticket to a wallet rather than passing one phone back and forth through the turnstile?
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
I appreciate that this is being forced upon clubs by the Premier League, but is it not the sort of thing that could amount to indirect discrimination based on a protected characteristic such as age?
Across the 20 EPL club there must be thousands of much older supporters who either don't have a mobile telephone full stop, or choose to have one of those nice simple ones with big buttons and the like.
I'm sure there's been case law before where it has been held to be unlawful discrimination, when an unconnected decision/act has had the consequence of preventing a class of people who share a protected characteristic from accessing a service?
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
I appreciate that this is being forced upon clubs by the Premier League, but is it not the sort of thing that could amount to indirect discrimination based on a protected characteristic such as age?
Across the 20 EPL club there must be thousands of much older supporters who either don't have a mobile telephone full stop, or choose to have one of those nice simple ones with big buttons and the like.
I'm sure there's been case law before where it has been held to be unlawful discrimination, when an unconnected decision/act has had the consequence of preventing a class of people who share a protected characteristic from accessing a service?
I hope that the exception scheme will continue into future seasons so no one is excluded. Football should be accessible to all.
I appreciate that this is being forced upon clubs by the Premier League, but is it not the sort of thing that could amount to indirect discrimination based on a protected characteristic such as age?
Across the 20 EPL club there must be thousands of much older supporters who either don't have a mobile telephone full stop, or choose to have one of those nice simple ones with big buttons and the like.
I'm sure there's been case law before where it has been held to be unlawful discrimination, when an unconnected decision/act has had the consequence of preventing a class of people who share a protected characteristic from accessing a service?
I can't imagine that's the case, law wise as it seems fairly standard practice across most ticketing now. I'm not sure that works as direct discrimination either, mobiles have been around for 30 years in the mainstream for the UK, I'm not sure a 60 year old back then would have shunned them as newfangled tech. Plus it's a bit patronising and doesn't specifically follow. Could, I don't know, playing music the yoofs enjoy be discrimination against the old or vice versa? Stupid example obviously. Dunno, I'm over thinking, but I imagine discrimination has to be fairly explicit and direct. I'm probably completely wrong.
I can't imagine that's the case, law wise as it seems fairly standard practice across most ticketing now. I'm not sure that works as direct discrimination either, mobiles have been around for 30 years in the mainstream for the UK, I'm not sure a 60 year old back then would have shunned them as newfangled tech. Plus it's a bit patronising and doesn't specifically follow. Could, I don't know, playing music the yoofs enjoy be discrimination against the old or vice versa? Stupid example obviously. Dunno, I'm over thinking, but I imagine discrimination has to be fairly explicit and direct. I'm probably completely wrong.
It's quite interesting when you dig into it.
The stated approach from the club has been (unless I've mis-read it) that exceptions will be granted this season, but that ticketing will be 100% digital from 2027/28.
Whereas the EPL guidance states:
"League rules will require clubs to ensure that Season Tickets and all Home and Away Match Tickets by default are made available as digital tickets. Clubs will retain some discretion to make some tickets available in other formats to supporters who have reasonable grounds to request them. This may include supporters who have a disability that makes the purchase or use of digital tickets challenging. Other examples include some group bookings, such as school or Club Community partners.
Clubs will consult with supporters’ representatives to develop suitable policies and exemptions."
So it would appear that ITFC's current position is a lot more hard-line than that of the EPL.
The Equality and Human Rights Commission also gives an example of indirect discrimination, that is incredibly close to what would happen under ITFC's current policy:
"What the Act says
Indirect discrimination may occur when a service provider, person exercising a public function or an association applies an apparently neutral provision, criterion or practice (PCP) which puts persons sharing a protected characteristic at a particular disadvantage (section 19, paragraph 1 and 2).
Example:
A GP practice only allows appointments to be booked using an online system. An 80-year-old woman points out that she cannot book an appointment as she does not have a home internet connection, device or the skills to get online. This is likely to be indirect age discrimination unless it can be justified. The GP surgery should have considered providing alternative ways to access appointments, such as allowing patients to book appointments over the telephone or in person."
So to my reading of things, persisting with a policy of 'no smartphone - no entry' would probably be deemed as being illegal indirect discrimination.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
I hope that the exception scheme will continue into future seasons so no one is excluded. Football should be accessible to all.
So firstly the Premier League rules doesn't state NFC it states digital (which is a bit ambiguous) its the clubs who have decided to go down the NFC route.
The PL rules also state:- Clubs will consult with supporters’ representatives to develop suitable policies and exemptions. I assume Town did that ?
Finally one other PL rule also state for this season and future seasons....:- Clubs will retain some discretion to make some tickets available in other formats to supporters who have reasonable grounds to request them. This may include supporters who have a disability that makes the purchase or use of digital tickets challenging. Other examples include some group bookings, such as school or Club Community partners.
And obviously the one bit I love (this wasn't listed in the PL rules) after chatting with the ticket office a couple of weeks ago, Corporate Executive boxes with be exempt from using NFC because it would be too difficult for them to arrange NFC access for each game as the clients are invariably different for every game. Thus if you're rich, NFC is too inconvenient. I appreciate that might change next season,
So firstly the Premier League rules doesn't state NFC it states digital (which is a bit ambiguous) its the clubs who have decided to go down the NFC route.
The PL rules also state:- Clubs will consult with supporters’ representatives to develop suitable policies and exemptions. I assume Town did that ?
Finally one other PL rule also state for this season and future seasons....:- Clubs will retain some discretion to make some tickets available in other formats to supporters who have reasonable grounds to request them. This may include supporters who have a disability that makes the purchase or use of digital tickets challenging. Other examples include some group bookings, such as school or Club Community partners.
And obviously the one bit I love (this wasn't listed in the PL rules) after chatting with the ticket office a couple of weeks ago, Corporate Executive boxes with be exempt from using NFC because it would be too difficult for them to arrange NFC access for each game as the clients are invariably different for every game. Thus if you're rich, NFC is too inconvenient. I appreciate that might change next season,
I can't see that ever changing - it'd lessen corporate hospitality as an experience/treat.
Businesspeople won't want to invite their networking contacts to the football, with the caveat that the entire box will have to register individually with ITFC as a requirement for access.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
The stated approach from the club has been (unless I've mis-read it) that exceptions will be granted this season, but that ticketing will be 100% digital from 2027/28.
Whereas the EPL guidance states:
"League rules will require clubs to ensure that Season Tickets and all Home and Away Match Tickets by default are made available as digital tickets. Clubs will retain some discretion to make some tickets available in other formats to supporters who have reasonable grounds to request them. This may include supporters who have a disability that makes the purchase or use of digital tickets challenging. Other examples include some group bookings, such as school or Club Community partners.
Clubs will consult with supporters’ representatives to develop suitable policies and exemptions."
So it would appear that ITFC's current position is a lot more hard-line than that of the EPL.
The Equality and Human Rights Commission also gives an example of indirect discrimination, that is incredibly close to what would happen under ITFC's current policy:
"What the Act says
Indirect discrimination may occur when a service provider, person exercising a public function or an association applies an apparently neutral provision, criterion or practice (PCP) which puts persons sharing a protected characteristic at a particular disadvantage (section 19, paragraph 1 and 2).
Example:
A GP practice only allows appointments to be booked using an online system. An 80-year-old woman points out that she cannot book an appointment as she does not have a home internet connection, device or the skills to get online. This is likely to be indirect age discrimination unless it can be justified. The GP surgery should have considered providing alternative ways to access appointments, such as allowing patients to book appointments over the telephone or in person."
So to my reading of things, persisting with a policy of 'no smartphone - no entry' would probably be deemed as being illegal indirect discrimination.
And the fact that they have issued concessions this season merely reinforces your reading, because why should the passage of time to next season make any difference, especially in the case of a person who is not getting any younger?
It seems to me that if all those who get a concession on age grounds this season were to come together and seek legal advice, I am inclined to think the legal adviser could persuade the club to back down.
Interestingly, the latest Premier League rules flesh out some of the bone, and are not so absolutist as the club suggests.
"A.1.91. “Digital Ticket” means a ticket for a League Match that is delivered securely end to-end through electronic means and includes (without limitation) (a) near field communication (NFC)-enabled mobile tickets and (b) mobile tickets with dynamic or rotating mobile barcodes;
Guidance For the avoidance of doubt, print-at-home tickets, physical season ticket cards, static digital mobile barcodes or QR codes and paper tickets are not considered to be Digital Tickets.
The League recognises that the technology in this area is evolving and the non-exhaustive list of examples of Digital Tickets is subject to change over time (including the removal of examples currently listed). Clubs are encouraged to contact the League in respect of any queries as to whether or not a type of ticket is considered to be a Digital Ticket."
" R.17. Each Home Club shall ensure that a minimum of 70% of all available Home Tickets and Premium Tickets for each League Match are issued as Digital Tickets. Prior to the start of each Season, each Club shall provide to the League details of any Home Tickets and Premium Tickets which are eligible not to be issued as Digital Tickets and the application process for requesting that a Home Ticket or Premium Ticket shall not be issued as a Digital Ticket.
Guidance Notwithstanding the minimum requirement set out above, Clubs are encouraged to ensure as many Home Tickets and Premium Tickets are issued as Digital Tickets as practicable."
Finally, one might think that this is an area where the supporters' club might get involved to support the case of elderly people or others who can't really cope with (or with the expense of) new technology. But I do get the impression (and I may be wrong) that they don't see this sort of thing as part of their role.
The stated approach from the club has been (unless I've mis-read it) that exceptions will be granted this season, but that ticketing will be 100% digital from 2027/28.
Whereas the EPL guidance states:
"League rules will require clubs to ensure that Season Tickets and all Home and Away Match Tickets by default are made available as digital tickets. Clubs will retain some discretion to make some tickets available in other formats to supporters who have reasonable grounds to request them. This may include supporters who have a disability that makes the purchase or use of digital tickets challenging. Other examples include some group bookings, such as school or Club Community partners.
Clubs will consult with supporters’ representatives to develop suitable policies and exemptions."
So it would appear that ITFC's current position is a lot more hard-line than that of the EPL.
The Equality and Human Rights Commission also gives an example of indirect discrimination, that is incredibly close to what would happen under ITFC's current policy:
"What the Act says
Indirect discrimination may occur when a service provider, person exercising a public function or an association applies an apparently neutral provision, criterion or practice (PCP) which puts persons sharing a protected characteristic at a particular disadvantage (section 19, paragraph 1 and 2).
Example:
A GP practice only allows appointments to be booked using an online system. An 80-year-old woman points out that she cannot book an appointment as she does not have a home internet connection, device or the skills to get online. This is likely to be indirect age discrimination unless it can be justified. The GP surgery should have considered providing alternative ways to access appointments, such as allowing patients to book appointments over the telephone or in person."
So to my reading of things, persisting with a policy of 'no smartphone - no entry' would probably be deemed as being illegal indirect discrimination.
….the majority of people that have requested physical tickets have done so purely so that they can pass them on easily without it being recorded by the club.
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure you yourself admitted that was why you did it.
People seem to be ignoring the fact that the entire reason for this is to stop touting of tickets.
I genuinely think that getting an exception is going to be far more difficult going forward and that any objections (on a legal basis or not) will fall on stoney ground in the near future.
"....get on, get on, get on, my groovy train” - Peter Joseph Hooton (Aug 1990)
….the majority of people that have requested physical tickets have done so purely so that they can pass them on easily without it being recorded by the club.
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure you yourself admitted that was why you did it.
People seem to be ignoring the fact that the entire reason for this is to stop touting of tickets.
I genuinely think that getting an exception is going to be far more difficult going forward and that any objections (on a legal basis or not) will fall on stoney ground in the near future.
Your first point is also true of a person who has more than one NFC ticket on their phone.
And I suppose it would be possible to have a spare mobile phone for the ticket which could be passed around
Interestingly, my season ticket used to trigger a "Check age" warning as I am over 65, but I am not sure if the gates will be manned anymore to check this sort of thing.
Controversial opinion that I might get downvoted for. Liverpool and Sunderland tickets were much easier to purchase this time round compared to two years ago, and I can't help but think it's because of touts unable to snap up hundreds of tickets.
If purchasing on behalf of others, you can assign tickets to 'friends and family', and people can log in and download to their own wallet. Yes, it's a change, which can take a while to get used to - but I don't think this is as bad as everyone is making out.
My 85 year old nan applied for an exception and received physical season ticket.
Everyone can be catered for, and ticket touts lose out.
….the majority of people that have requested physical tickets have done so purely so that they can pass them on easily without it being recorded by the club.
I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure you yourself admitted that was why you did it.
People seem to be ignoring the fact that the entire reason for this is to stop touting of tickets.
I genuinely think that getting an exception is going to be far more difficult going forward and that any objections (on a legal basis or not) will fall on stoney ground in the near future.
It doesn't bother me - if I HAVE to have one, then I have to have one. It's more with my father in mind, who I know wouldn't bother to go to PR if he had to buy a smart phone and jump through the technical hoops.
The club can scream 'NO EXCEPTIONS' until they're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact that such a stance would be highly discriminatory, and the simplest of tap-ins for a group of older fans should they choose to mount a legal challenge.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
So firstly the Premier League rules doesn't state NFC it states digital (which is a bit ambiguous) its the clubs who have decided to go down the NFC route.
The PL rules also state:- Clubs will consult with supporters’ representatives to develop suitable policies and exemptions. I assume Town did that ?
Finally one other PL rule also state for this season and future seasons....:- Clubs will retain some discretion to make some tickets available in other formats to supporters who have reasonable grounds to request them. This may include supporters who have a disability that makes the purchase or use of digital tickets challenging. Other examples include some group bookings, such as school or Club Community partners.
And obviously the one bit I love (this wasn't listed in the PL rules) after chatting with the ticket office a couple of weeks ago, Corporate Executive boxes with be exempt from using NFC because it would be too difficult for them to arrange NFC access for each game as the clients are invariably different for every game. Thus if you're rich, NFC is too inconvenient. I appreciate that might change next season,
Although they don’t state NFC, they do provide a definition of what they mean by ‘digital ticket’.
” A digital ticket is one that is delivered electronically, most commonly to a mobile phone. It allows clubs to assign each Home or Away match ticket to an assigned supporter who is registered with the club. It uses enhanced security features such as hidden or rotating barcodes that help to prevent misuse or the illegal touting of tickets.
Digital ticketing will allow clubs to make the sale and delivery of tickets more efficient. It will also help to resolve challenges, such as lost or damaged tickets and create scope for more dynamic ticket transfer schemes.
From the start of Season 2026/27, digital tickets will have replaced other phased-out methods of sales such as paper tickets, print-at-home options, or plastic cards.
Home ticket transfer schemes, for the authorised resale of tickets, will also be facilitated through digital tickets only.”
Although they don’t state NFC, they do provide a definition of what they mean by ‘digital ticket’.
” A digital ticket is one that is delivered electronically, most commonly to a mobile phone. It allows clubs to assign each Home or Away match ticket to an assigned supporter who is registered with the club. It uses enhanced security features such as hidden or rotating barcodes that help to prevent misuse or the illegal touting of tickets.
Digital ticketing will allow clubs to make the sale and delivery of tickets more efficient. It will also help to resolve challenges, such as lost or damaged tickets and create scope for more dynamic ticket transfer schemes.
From the start of Season 2026/27, digital tickets will have replaced other phased-out methods of sales such as paper tickets, print-at-home options, or plastic cards.
Home ticket transfer schemes, for the authorised resale of tickets, will also be facilitated through digital tickets only.”
That does limit the options.
Not by my reading of the PL's guidance.
Whilst the majority of tickets will be expected to adhere to the definition of digital tickets, my understanding is that clubs will be entitled to grant exceptions, and that said exceptions will not need to be digital products.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
Whilst the majority of tickets will be expected to adhere to the definition of digital tickets, my understanding is that clubs will be entitled to grant exceptions, and that said exceptions will not need to be digital products.
Exceptions can be granted yes, and that is covered separately (and a different point).
The post I replied to however was saying that NFC was not explicitly mandated by the PL (it’s not), but I was pointing out that their guidance on what a digital ticket is, pretty much limits it in practical terms to NFC.
I appreciate that this is being forced upon clubs by the Premier League, but is it not the sort of thing that could amount to indirect discrimination based on a protected characteristic such as age?
Across the 20 EPL club there must be thousands of much older supporters who either don't have a mobile telephone full stop, or choose to have one of those nice simple ones with big buttons and the like.
I'm sure there's been case law before where it has been held to be unlawful discrimination, when an unconnected decision/act has had the consequence of preventing a class of people who share a protected characteristic from accessing a service?
Absolutely, my octagenarian Mum is really freaked out by it, close to deciding not to go. She sits with some friends in a different stand to me, but I am going to go right up to the turnstile with her tomorrow.
Plus, it's very hard to modify a ticket, my daughter is at uni, so most weeks I will have to convert her ticket to adult so one of my friends can go, I spent an hour and a quarter on the phone to the ticket office yesterday to do this as the website wasn't working properly.
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