| The Punched Cross 18:56 - Aug 30 with 1379 views | DublinBlue84 |
Based on the rules that VAR seem to be applying, punched crosses are now allowed?
Float a ball in, punch it across goal, make sure it gets a deflection and under the rules it is allowed because the ball wasn't going in?
Maybe a tactic to try? |  |
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| The Punched Cross on 18:57 - Aug 30 with 1335 views | Trequartista |
No a punch is deliberate handball. VAR ruled that Maguire didn't handball it, it only hit his hand. I disagree, I think it was handball, but the rule was applied correctly.
If it goes in directly it is disallowed because the handball "bar" is lowered and hitting his hand just disallows the goal.
Having two-tier handball is madness in my opinion. [Post edited 30 Aug 18:59]
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| The Punched Cross on 18:57 - Aug 30 with 1322 views | Bluecasp |
That wouldn't work as it would be deliberate handball. Apart from that its fine. | | | |
| The Punched Cross on 18:59 - Aug 30 with 1257 views | DublinBlue84 |
| The Punched Cross on 18:57 - Aug 30 by Trequartista |
No a punch is deliberate handball. VAR ruled that Maguire didn't handball it, it only hit his hand. I disagree, I think it was handball, but the rule was applied correctly.
If it goes in directly it is disallowed because the handball "bar" is lowered and hitting his hand just disallows the goal.
Having two-tier handball is madness in my opinion. [Post edited 30 Aug 18:59]
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But Maguire was a clear handball as well, so if the cross is punched and the ref doesn't think it was or didn't see it, then it is not a deliberate handball. | |
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| The Punched Cross on 18:59 - Aug 30 with 1244 views | Trequartista |
| The Punched Cross on 18:59 - Aug 30 by DublinBlue84 |
But Maguire was a clear handball as well, so if the cross is punched and the ref doesn't think it was or didn't see it, then it is not a deliberate handball. |
I agree, but it was ruled as accidental, not deliberate. | |
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| The Punched Cross on 19:01 - Aug 30 with 1209 views | grow_our_own |
No bc punching ball is deliberate handball. Goal stood today bc VAR deemed Maguire to have accidentally handballed. If he'd intentionally handled, goal would have been disallowed. Rule changed in 2021, before which, any handball (even accidental) by attacker would be no goal.
I can see why they changed it. More goals. But on balance, I don't think they should have. Only person who can truly know if handball is deliberate is the attacker who handles. Maguire in today's case. Hands moved towards ball, but were in front of his chest (no expanded silhouette). I'd say it was deliberate, but enough grey area for VAR to argue otherwise. |  | | |
| The Punched Cross on 19:04 - Aug 30 with 1150 views | Scuzzer |
| The Punched Cross on 18:59 - Aug 30 by Trequartista |
I agree, but it was ruled as accidental, not deliberate. |
In my opinion it shouldn't matter if its accidental or not if he then has controlled the ball and given an advantage that leads to a goal. |  |
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| The Punched Cross on 19:06 - Aug 30 with 1131 views | FrimleyBlue |
| The Punched Cross on 18:57 - Aug 30 by Trequartista |
No a punch is deliberate handball. VAR ruled that Maguire didn't handball it, it only hit his hand. I disagree, I think it was handball, but the rule was applied correctly.
If it goes in directly it is disallowed because the handball "bar" is lowered and hitting his hand just disallows the goal.
Having two-tier handball is madness in my opinion. [Post edited 30 Aug 18:59]
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What if the cross was hitting you in the face? |  |
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| The Punched Cross on 19:11 - Aug 30 with 1079 views | Trequartista |
| The Punched Cross on 19:04 - Aug 30 by Scuzzer |
In my opinion it shouldn't matter if its accidental or not if he then has controlled the ball and given an advantage that leads to a goal. |
Yes some handball fouls are given when accidental but the hands are in an unnatural position. I think that should have applied in this case. I think it was a free-kick to Ipswich.
But VAR didn't seem to care about that, all it did was show replays of Greaves putting it in, having already assumed it was not a foul, and it only hit the hand. [Post edited 30 Aug 19:11]
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| The Punched Cross on 19:13 - Aug 30 with 1001 views | grow_our_own |
| The Punched Cross on 19:11 - Aug 30 by Trequartista |
Yes some handball fouls are given when accidental but the hands are in an unnatural position. I think that should have applied in this case. I think it was a free-kick to Ipswich.
But VAR didn't seem to care about that, all it did was show replays of Greaves putting it in, having already assumed it was not a foul, and it only hit the hand. [Post edited 30 Aug 19:11]
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Yes Sky commentary team called it wrong. They said it was a goal bc Maguire didn't score, Greaves did. But that's irrelevant. Goal stood bc handball was deemed accidental. | | | |
| The Punched Cross on 19:16 - Aug 30 with 967 views | surreyblue |
| The Punched Cross on 18:57 - Aug 30 by Trequartista |
No a punch is deliberate handball. VAR ruled that Maguire didn't handball it, it only hit his hand. I disagree, I think it was handball, but the rule was applied correctly.
If it goes in directly it is disallowed because the handball "bar" is lowered and hitting his hand just disallows the goal.
Having two-tier handball is madness in my opinion. [Post edited 30 Aug 18:59]
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This is the bigger travesty for me. Its surely a deliberate handball. His hands go from the side of his body towards the ball as he jumps into the block. It might be instinctive or unlucky rather than truly deliberate, but if his hand moves towards the ball and hits it then surely it is an offense? | | | |
| The Punched Cross on 19:16 - Aug 30 with 968 views | Trequartista |
| The Punched Cross on 19:13 - Aug 30 by grow_our_own |
Yes Sky commentary team called it wrong. They said it was a goal bc Maguire didn't score, Greaves did. But that's irrelevant. Goal stood bc handball was deemed accidental. |
They were correct in that had Maguire scored directly it would have been disallowed, because it only has to hit the hands if there is then a direct shot for it to be ruled out. It used to be anywhere in the build-up but now its a direct shot. That goal would have been disallowed when we were last in the Premier League under the rules then. | |
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| The Punched Cross on 19:18 - Aug 30 with 934 views | Trequartista |
| The Punched Cross on 19:16 - Aug 30 by surreyblue |
This is the bigger travesty for me. Its surely a deliberate handball. His hands go from the side of his body towards the ball as he jumps into the block. It might be instinctive or unlucky rather than truly deliberate, but if his hand moves towards the ball and hits it then surely it is an offense? |
I'm not convinced VAR looked at that, I only saw them looking at Greaves deflecting in i.e. part 2. not part 1.
That's not to say they looked at part 1 and it wasn't shown to the viewers, I would be interested to hear if that is followed up. | |
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| The Punched Cross on 19:28 - Aug 30 with 857 views | OldFart71 |
Looks like things haven't moved on since Leeds beat us and Elland Road and "Sniffer " Clarke handballed the goal into our net.
Seems like they apply the rules when it suits them,
VAR is as I have said before no better than two linesmen and a referee.
It's still open to bias where two tackles exactly the same and one get's sent off and the other is deemed accidental and not intentional.
The bigger teams have since football began always got the decisions and VAR makes no difference except costing a fortune and giving even more jobs for the boys. | | | |
| The Punched Cross on 21:32 - Aug 30 with 685 views | grow_our_own |
| The Punched Cross on 19:16 - Aug 30 by Trequartista |
They were correct in that had Maguire scored directly it would have been disallowed, because it only has to hit the hands if there is then a direct shot for it to be ruled out. It used to be anywhere in the build-up but now its a direct shot. That goal would have been disallowed when we were last in the Premier League under the rules then. |
Yes you're right:
Accidental handball --> attacker shoots wide --> defender deflects it in for an own goal --> goal allowed.
Accidental handball --> attacker shoots and is credited with the goal --> goal disallowed.
Deliberate handball --> disallowed.
Pre 2021 rule change: all three disallowed. See https://www.theifab.com/laws/l law 12. [Post edited 30 Aug 21:33]
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| The Punched Cross on 21:33 - Aug 30 with 676 views | jas0999 |
We conceded five and thoroughly deserved to lose. Can’t do that at any level. | | | |
| The Punched Cross on 22:11 - Aug 30 with 540 views | Trequartista |
| The Punched Cross on 21:32 - Aug 30 by grow_our_own |
Yes you're right:
Accidental handball --> attacker shoots wide --> defender deflects it in for an own goal --> goal allowed.
Accidental handball --> attacker shoots and is credited with the goal --> goal disallowed.
Deliberate handball --> disallowed.
Pre 2021 rule change: all three disallowed. See https://www.theifab.com/laws/l law 12. [Post edited 30 Aug 21:33]
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I'm wrong about it being a goal in 2024/25, the rule changed earlier than i thought.
Another confusing thing is calling it "accidental handball". Accidental handball can still be a foul if the arms are in an unnatural position, and not a foul if they aren't. It would be better if they defined it as "handball offence" or "handball foul". So if they say Maguire didn't commit a handball offence, that would be clearer. | |
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| The Punched Cross on 22:19 - Aug 30 with 491 views | redrickstuhaart |
| The Punched Cross on 18:57 - Aug 30 by Trequartista |
No a punch is deliberate handball. VAR ruled that Maguire didn't handball it, it only hit his hand. I disagree, I think it was handball, but the rule was applied correctly.
If it goes in directly it is disallowed because the handball "bar" is lowered and hitting his hand just disallows the goal.
Having two-tier handball is madness in my opinion. [Post edited 30 Aug 18:59]
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It was directly from a handball whether deliberate or not. No way the decision would be the same the other end. | |
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| The Punched Cross on 22:24 - Aug 30 with 458 views | VanSaParody |
| The Punched Cross on 19:16 - Aug 30 by surreyblue |
This is the bigger travesty for me. Its surely a deliberate handball. His hands go from the side of his body towards the ball as he jumps into the block. It might be instinctive or unlucky rather than truly deliberate, but if his hand moves towards the ball and hits it then surely it is an offense? |
This
I also think if Maguire doesn't raise his hands towards the ball, which is still bouncing upwards, & instead chests it, the ball would have continued upwards, becoming harder or taking longer for Maguire to control it & eventually get a shot away.
The fact he (instinctively or not) raises his hands towards the ball & pats it back downwards is what gave him an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE |  | | |
| The Punched Cross on 22:33 - Aug 30 with 432 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The Punched Cross on 21:32 - Aug 30 by grow_our_own |
Yes you're right:
Accidental handball --> attacker shoots wide --> defender deflects it in for an own goal --> goal allowed.
Accidental handball --> attacker shoots and is credited with the goal --> goal disallowed.
Deliberate handball --> disallowed.
Pre 2021 rule change: all three disallowed. See https://www.theifab.com/laws/l law 12. [Post edited 30 Aug 21:33]
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It's the discrepancy between the first and second scenarios that is crass. The rule is crass. The officials today applied the rule as it is written. |  |
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| The Punched Cross on 23:29 - Aug 30 with 319 views | PioneerBlue |
It felt very 2024/25 defensively | |
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