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Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 17:12 - Oct 4 by bluester
It’s a bit weird isn’t it?
Feels like a rather a binary move on a subject that is far more nuanced.
Sounds like you've just described the whole 'debate' around this issue. It's ridiculously polarised isn't it. If it was a simple side of any one 'side' being right, they wouldn't have needed all the various politcal interventions throughout the 20th Century to try and keep both sides happy in what is probably an impossible task.
I suspect this Jew and Israel historian’s views will not be received well in this thread, but I’d be interested to hear the views of anyone who can pull Avi Shlaim’s argument apart with logic:
FREE PALASTINE FROM ZIONIST BOMBS. FREE LEBANON FROM ZIONIST BOMBS. FREE IRAN FROM ZIONIST BOMBS.
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Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 17:41 - Oct 4 with 1459 views
Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 17:36 - Oct 4 by Swansea_Blue
Sounds like you've just described the whole 'debate' around this issue. It's ridiculously polarised isn't it. If it was a simple side of any one 'side' being right, they wouldn't have needed all the various politcal interventions throughout the 20th Century to try and keep both sides happy in what is probably an impossible task.
Quite apart from anything else, the sheer stupidity of the party willingly wading into such a complex, delicate, heated topic as this and lumping down a label completely unnecessarily, just shows their lack of judgement, political acumen and readiness to govern unfortunately.
Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 17:40 - Oct 4 by Cafe_Newman
I suspect this Jew and Israel historian’s views will not be received well in this thread, but I’d be interested to hear the views of anyone who can pull Avi Shlaim’s argument apart with logic:
It's pretty easy for anyone who is familiar with Israel to pull his arguments apart.
On the first bit about apartheid. Israel proper is already a democratic state in which all its inhabitants - including the 1-2m Arabs - have an equal vote. The 'apartheid' he refers to is what is happening in the West Bank and Gaza, which is not part of Israel.
Re the claim that Israel is the only country to be 'officially racist' because of the Nation State law, he might want to familiarise himself with article 153 of the Malaysian constitution, the Black Economic Empowerment policy in South Africa and various similar laws other countries have. It's also worth considering that this is a fairly recent law that was only narrowly passed by the Knesset. It is not to be equated with Zionism, because clearly quite a lot of Zionists disagree with it.
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Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 18:06 - Oct 4 with 1353 views
It would seem that the Greens want the state of Israel replaced by Palestine. ‘From the river to the sea’ presumably.
The last paragraph David Miller argues ‘in social media posts that Zionists have worked as “infiltrators and subversives”, gained access to not just all UK political parties but also “the media, entertainment industries, the law, financial institutions, sports and all sorts of apparently obscure parts of the UK”.
Miller (a former professor of political sociology who was sacked by the University of Bristol in 2021) is a key figure in the anti-Zionist Movement and has links to Greens for Palestine, which is proposing the Green party motion on Zionism is racism’.
I see echos of Hitler’s Germany in all this. The disease starts and it grows. Given one poster has already said ‘excellent’ I’ve no doubt many will agree with that sentiment on the Greens’ policy. I do not.
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Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 18:19 - Oct 4 with 1283 views
Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 17:58 - Oct 4 by Clapham_Junction
It's pretty easy for anyone who is familiar with Israel to pull his arguments apart.
On the first bit about apartheid. Israel proper is already a democratic state in which all its inhabitants - including the 1-2m Arabs - have an equal vote. The 'apartheid' he refers to is what is happening in the West Bank and Gaza, which is not part of Israel.
Re the claim that Israel is the only country to be 'officially racist' because of the Nation State law, he might want to familiarise himself with article 153 of the Malaysian constitution, the Black Economic Empowerment policy in South Africa and various similar laws other countries have. It's also worth considering that this is a fairly recent law that was only narrowly passed by the Knesset. It is not to be equated with Zionism, because clearly quite a lot of Zionists disagree with it.
Israel considers the west bank part of israel- and its continuing to annex it piece by piece, by force.
That is what many in the islamic world, and middle east undrstand by "zionism".
Like so many things, the issue is getting caught up in the semantics of what we label things (and in some cases, people deliberately equivocating or using ambiguity disingenuously)
It would seem that the Greens want the state of Israel replaced by Palestine. ‘From the river to the sea’ presumably.
The last paragraph David Miller argues ‘in social media posts that Zionists have worked as “infiltrators and subversives”, gained access to not just all UK political parties but also “the media, entertainment industries, the law, financial institutions, sports and all sorts of apparently obscure parts of the UK”.
Miller (a former professor of political sociology who was sacked by the University of Bristol in 2021) is a key figure in the anti-Zionist Movement and has links to Greens for Palestine, which is proposing the Green party motion on Zionism is racism’.
I see echos of Hitler’s Germany in all this. The disease starts and it grows. Given one poster has already said ‘excellent’ I’ve no doubt many will agree with that sentiment on the Greens’ policy. I do not.
I'll preface this comment with reference to my two comments above - very much against this Green Party motion, fixing their own definition of "another group's" relatively loosely defined terminology and defining them as universally racist.
However, I find your post quite disturbing too, when the state of Israel is actually explicitly trying to destroy what is left of the state of Palestine, and also your reference to Hitler's Germany - if that comparison is not allowed on one side, it should not be allowed on the other, particularly given the balance of power in the situation.
Good work by Philogene...... GREAT WORK BY PHILOGENE!!!
Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 16:45 - Oct 4 by Nthsuffolkblue
I would say the bit on the right does and it is why (I think we are agreeing here) it matters entirely what definition you are using.
"Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible." from the WIki bit on the right.
The whole situation is an utter mess and there are far too many people making it far worse.
That Wiki entry is contentious (as is bound to be on that topic) and appears to be referencing a situation in 1948, when the fledgling Israeli state was fighting for survival against its Arab neighbours. I'm not sure it's so satisfactory for a basic definition of Zionism as the dictionary entry at the top.
Wiki pages on sensitive subjects can end up with edit wars as each side tries to make their view of events prevail. Which affects its reliability and impartiality somewhat.
Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 18:35 - Oct 4 by NthQldITFC
I'll preface this comment with reference to my two comments above - very much against this Green Party motion, fixing their own definition of "another group's" relatively loosely defined terminology and defining them as universally racist.
However, I find your post quite disturbing too, when the state of Israel is actually explicitly trying to destroy what is left of the state of Palestine, and also your reference to Hitler's Germany - if that comparison is not allowed on one side, it should not be allowed on the other, particularly given the balance of power in the situation.
I separated the issues out to try and avoid whataboutery. I have on this forum frequently supported the two state solution and still do.
I have never supported what Israel has done in Palestine and see the stealing of territory and settlement of land that is not theirs as unacceptable.
But when I see the language being used in respect of the Greens’ policy, it gives me the chills when I look down through history. Especially when I see what I believe is a rapid rise of anti semitism in this country. It may even be a vote winning move by the Greens. Time will tell.
I am neither Jewish or have any heritage from that part of the world so I have no ‘vested interest’ in it, if that’s the right term. The history of conflict in that region goes back 1000s of years and my knowledge of it is at best sketchy and probably worse than many on here.
Rightly or wrongly, I saw policy by a political party in this country proposing the eradication of a nation state and somebody describing it as excellent. I make no apologies for finding it unacceptable and in fact disgusting - or for being supportive of a probably unattainable two state solution.
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Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 19:10 - Oct 4 with 1099 views
Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 17:41 - Oct 4 by John_Warks_Willy
Phil loves thread topics like these
Apologies to Phil and he can obviously remove it. I didn't want to be the one to start it, but its just such a bleak day in British politics, I felt I had to.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 17:45 - Oct 4 by Ryorry
Quite apart from anything else, the sheer stupidity of the party willingly wading into such a complex, delicate, heated topic as this and lumping down a label completely unnecessarily, just shows their lack of judgement, political acumen and readiness to govern unfortunately.
[Post edited 4 Oct 17:50]
Yep. As J2 mentioned earlier in this thread: “Far too interested in making sure there are a set of pure approved beliefs rather than actually making themselves a realistic option for most of the country.”
It’s probably the definition of identity politics isn’t it? I think the left has always had this problem of arguing about ideology and definitions at their own expense. That goes back to the foundations of European socialism with the schism between Marx and the anarchists of Bakunin/Guillaume. And this is very much a left issue that’s been imported into the Greens from what I can tell. And I’m sure if Glassers had contributed to this thread he’d have said it’s the same ideology that affected Corbyn’s Labour (I’m only poster name dropping because pretty much everything I know on the issue is informed by people on here).
It’s a mess for the Greens. They shouldn’t be defining themselves by this. I envy Europeans who have a viable Green Party to vote for that has a share in power and can promote policies that protect our environment. That’s what they should be for.
Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 19:10 - Oct 4 by giant_stow
Apologies to Phil and he can obviously remove it. I didn't want to be the one to start it, but its just such a bleak day in British politics, I felt I had to.
Can't speak for Phil but doubt you need to apologise. People can discuss it like adults. If we can't, that's not your fault.
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Looks like the Zionism is Racism motion has passed on 19:25 - Oct 4 with 1020 views
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