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Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 18:07 - Nov 2 by Plums
Is nobody asking why on earth there are remembrance day events happening in October? Whatever happened to a dignified and respectful commemoration on Armistice Sunday and 11/11?
Instead we've got some sort of poppy carnival going in for weeks and losing all meaning. There was some woman on FB who paints poppies on clingfilm on bus stops. It's clearly what they gave their tomorrows for.
One of our local county councillors here in Costessey, in the last few years, has taken it upon himself to cable-tie plastic poppies and 'Tommy' symbols to all of the local lamp-posts. The fact that we now seem to have a whole industry specialising in Remembrance Decorations is crass in the extreme.
Having been out to Ypres last month, what struck me most is that, more than anything, we owe those kids (and they were kids) a massive debt of remorse. But, as the years go by, the message of 'never again' gets drowned out more and more.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 19:38 - Nov 2 by baxterbasics
I'm in two minds about it really.
Yes people should be able to decide if they honour it or not. With the expectation they should at least be respectful of those that do.
Also I agree it's best kept as Remembrance Sunday, rather than Remembrance all-of-November and some of October too.
However, this doesn't change the fact that Celtic fans include a large number of degenerate, illiterate, Anglophobic, terrorist sympathisers.
(I also noticed Palacios seemed to have no issue which was nice to see).
We have this discussion every year though don't we?
Palacios shouldn't have an issue with the poppy, as it's an act of remembrance for war dead from any nation. After all, it was an American woman who first used the poppy as a symbol of remembrance in the aftermath of World War I and a Frenchwoman who went on to popularise the idea, leading to it being taken up by Earl Haig and spreading throughout the British Empire.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 21:23 - Nov 2 by Whos_blue
It's weird isn't it? Some here can't stop wanging on about some undetermined point in history that we should return to and restore this country to it's long gone greatness.
I can see the appeal. I’d happily return to 6th May 1978 and restore us to our long gone greatness. “Osborne, one nil!”.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 22:03 - Nov 2 by Guthrum
Palacios shouldn't have an issue with the poppy, as it's an act of remembrance for war dead from any nation. After all, it was an American woman who first used the poppy as a symbol of remembrance in the aftermath of World War I and a Frenchwoman who went on to popularise the idea, leading to it being taken up by Earl Haig and spreading throughout the British Empire.
Whilst not attributed to us, I think it’s fair to say the use of the poppy in remembrance is today most commonly associated with Britain and the Commonwealth. So I can see why he or anyone from a country who has beef with us or the Commonwealth could potentially have issues with it. It’s only really an act of remembrance for war dead from any country on our terms. Others don’t always see it in the same light.
Of course, it doesn’t look like Palacios is political and worries about it, which is great. A bit like being happy to go to church for a wedding ceremony even though you never otherwise set foot in the place. Sometimes it doesn’t hurt to just go with the flow.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 18:07 - Nov 2 by Plums
Is nobody asking why on earth there are remembrance day events happening in October? Whatever happened to a dignified and respectful commemoration on Armistice Sunday and 11/11?
Instead we've got some sort of poppy carnival going in for weeks and losing all meaning. There was some woman on FB who paints poppies on clingfilm on bus stops. It's clearly what they gave their tomorrows for.
The same argument pops up every year.
Clubs are scared to get slated if they don’t have their own Remembrance events, which is wrong but the world we live in now, they feel like they HAVE to do it.
It should be how it used to be and just be done on Remembrance weekend and any games that fall on the 11th.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 23:18 - Nov 2 by Swansea_Blue
Whilst not attributed to us, I think it’s fair to say the use of the poppy in remembrance is today most commonly associated with Britain and the Commonwealth. So I can see why he or anyone from a country who has beef with us or the Commonwealth could potentially have issues with it. It’s only really an act of remembrance for war dead from any country on our terms. Others don’t always see it in the same light.
Of course, it doesn’t look like Palacios is political and worries about it, which is great. A bit like being happy to go to church for a wedding ceremony even though you never otherwise set foot in the place. Sometimes it doesn’t hurt to just go with the flow.
I think the French use some blue flower for theirs ? I assumed in the 70s that the remembrance day would fade away as the veterans from the two world wars faded away themselves as say, remembrance for Waterloo and Trafalgar did. But it has grown with a sort of religious fervour. In general ,there is an obsession for all things WWII and sometimes I think we need to be looking ahead rather than constantly going back to the war days or when we were a power, or supposedly better place to live etc. Too much nostalgia through rose-tinted glasses.
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Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 08:01 - Nov 3 with 651 views
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 21:15 - Nov 2 by Guthrum
Remembrance Day and the Poppy Appeal were originally set up to commemorate the dead, not the excercise in performative patriotism it has become in some quarters (not least sections of the press). Nor glorifying militarism, quite the opposite.
The Irish situation (and therefore that of Celtic) is not straightforward. Many see it as sybolising British imperialism. But, on the other hand, tens of thousands of young Irishmen were killed in World War I - all volunteers, conscription was never enacted in Ireland. Catholics from the south as well as Protestants from Ulster.
Interestingly, Scots singer, Eric Bogle's No Man's Land (made famous by the Fureys and better known as the Green Fields of France) name checks a fictional Irish soldier, Willie McBride.
According to Wikipedia, Bogle himself has stated that he had no particular soldier in mind in choosing the name "Willie McBride"; "McBride" was simply a convenient rhyme for "grave side", and he also wanted to give the soldier an Irish name as a counter to the anti-Irish sentiment prevalent in Britain at the time.
But according to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, there were actually eight soldiers named "William McBride", and a further six listed as "W. McBride", who died in France or Belgium during the First World War.
Anyway, it gives me a chance to post this wonderful recording of the song.
EDIT: the song was anti-war and this version includes verses not included in certain other versions of the song.
Well the sun it shines down on these green fields of France The warm wind blows gently and the red poppies dance The trenches are vanished now under the plough No gas, no barbed wire, no guns firing now But here in this graveyard it is still No Man's Land And the countless white crosses in mute witness stand To man's blind indifference to his fellow man And a whole generation that was butchered and downed
And I can't help but wonder now Willie McBride Do all those who lie here know why they died? Did you really believe them when they told you the cause? Did you really believe them that this war would end war? But the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame - The killing, the dying - it was all done in vain For Willie McBride, it's all happened again And again, and again, and again, and again
FURTHER EDIT: This from Wikipedia made me laugh.
In 2009, Bogle told an audience in Weymouth that he had read about a girl who had been presented with a copy of the song by then prime minister Tony Blair, who called it "his favourite anti-war poem".
[Post edited 3 Nov 8:44]
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Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 08:57 - Nov 3 with 586 views
So they gathered the crippled, the wounded, the maimed, and they shipped us back home to Australia The legless, the armless, the blind, the insane, those proud wounded heroes of Suvla And as our ship pulled into Circular Quay, I looked at the place where me legs used to be And thanked Christ there was nobody waiting for me, to grieve, to mourn, and to pity
And so now every April, I sit on me porch, and I watch the parades pass before me And I see my old comrades, how proudly they march, reviving old dreams of past glories And the old men march slowly, old bones stiff and sore, they're tired old heroes of a forgotten war And the young people ask, what are they marching for? ...and I ask myself the same question
But the band plays Waltzing Matilda, and the old men still answer the call But as year follows year, more old men disappear, someday no one will march there at all
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 10:00 - Nov 3 by JakeITFC
Whereabouts in Derry is he from?
It's not that hard to note some equivalence here.
The objection from a NI republican might be that British soldiers were responsible for violence and repression against that community. They associate the poppy (rightly or wrongly) with British imperialism.
An Argentinian might have a similar objection (rightly or wrongly) that British imperialism keeps 'their' island out of Argentinian control and British soldiers killed Argentinians in the related conflict. Look at what Argentinian players did at the World Cup for evidence they still feel pretty strongly about it.
It's all a lot easier if you just treat the Poppy (and remembrance day) as a way to honour all war dead, instead of some symbol of British patriotism. It doesn't help, admittedly, when far right groups use it that way. But like the Union and England flags, they don't own it.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 10:31 - Nov 3 by baxterbasics
It's not that hard to note some equivalence here.
The objection from a NI republican might be that British soldiers were responsible for violence and repression against that community. They associate the poppy (rightly or wrongly) with British imperialism.
An Argentinian might have a similar objection (rightly or wrongly) that British imperialism keeps 'their' island out of Argentinian control and British soldiers killed Argentinians in the related conflict. Look at what Argentinian players did at the World Cup for evidence they still feel pretty strongly about it.
It's all a lot easier if you just treat the Poppy (and remembrance day) as a way to honour all war dead, instead of some symbol of British patriotism. It doesn't help, admittedly, when far right groups use it that way. But like the Union and England flags, they don't own it.
I don't think that the two are in any way similar and I think it is crass and demeaning to the valid right that McClean (and indeed anybody else) has to abstain from wearing it.
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Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 16:44 - Nov 3 with 301 views
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 11:51 - Nov 3 by JakeITFC
I don't think that the two are in any way similar and I think it is crass and demeaning to the valid right that McClean (and indeed anybody else) has to abstain from wearing it.
Calm down sunshine. I didn't give an opinion of James Mclean's right to refuse to wear a poppy. Given his upbringing in an area which saw atrocities committed by British soldier on Bloody Sunday, I'd say it is completely understandable that he doesn't wish to show any support or commemoration for British troops.
I was merely expressing surprise that Palacios, as well as the other Argentinian players in the Premier League had no issue with wearing the poppy. Again it would be understandable if any of them declined.
No need to go in two footed.
[Post edited 3 Nov 19:39]
Antisemites, Jew haters and crashing bores will be put on ignore.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 16:44 - Nov 3 by GlasgowBlue
Calm down sunshine. I didn't give an opinion of James Mclean's right to refuse to wear a poppy. Given his upbringing in an area which saw atrocities committed by British soldier on Bloody Sunday, I'd say it is completely understandable that he doesn't wish to show any support or commemoration for British troops.
I was merely expressing surprise that Palacios, as well as the other Argentinian players in the Premier League had no issue with wearing the poppy. Again it would be understandable if any of them declined.
No need to go in two footed.
[Post edited 3 Nov 19:39]
Assuming Palacios even understands the issues (eg. that money from the Poppy Appeal goes to soldiers who served in the Falklands), I imagine these words from McClean are probably the clincher for virtually all players.
‘Yeah, look, maybe I was a bit naive in thinking you know, with me being the one that took the stand first, it’ll pave way for young Irish lads coming through and it doesn’t seem to be the case.
I speak to a lot of people and I’ve had players say that they don’t believe in wearing the poppy and they wouldn’t wear it, but they just don’t want to the hassle.
So in a way, you know, I was kind of hoping by me doing it that would open a door for them to kind of do that themselves when they’re doing something that they don’t want to do. But probably they’re afraid of the backlash and that’s fine.
You know what you don’t want because it’s horrific abuse and it can be quite taxing. So I understand why they don’t want that. But I’m always of the belief that if you don’t believe in something, then, you know, take a stand.’
Putting it another way, Argentinian players may be happy to take a stance at the World Cup but will realise to do so in the Premier League isn't a good career move.
[Post edited 3 Nov 17:38]
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Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 18:03 - Nov 3 with 222 views
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 17:00 - Nov 2 by DJR
I always wear a poppy but I don't think I would if I had grown up where McClean did.
This from the article.
"He comes from Creggan, the estate affected most on Bloody Sunday in 1972 when 14 unarmed civilians were killed by the British army in Derry. Six of the fatalities were from Creggan. In 2010, after the Saville report finally concluded that all the victims posed no threat, the British prime minister David Cameron apologised for the “unjustified and unjustifiable” massacre."
And surely we fought wars for the sort of freedom that allows people to make their own choice?
This is exactly what the Royal British Legion say.
Every
Single
Year
And yet the "You have to wear a Poppy" fascists think they know better, and threaten violence against those who they "catch" not wearing one.
It's taking a very simple symbolic action (with the Poppies originally being manufactured and assembled by wounded Veterans to provide them with employment) and totally warping it.
As for knitting poppy themed tea cosies for Post Boxes: can anyone explain to me how that honours anyone? It's just performative self righteousness (now often photographed for social media likes and clicks) one of the ugliest of human flaws.
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Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 18:13 - Nov 3 with 197 views
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 21:09 - Nov 2 by BlueBadger
There's a whole lot of turds/obvious bots very upset about this. As if they'd never heard of Alan Turing, Wilfred Owen, Robert Graves or Rupert Brooke.
Why don't the 'patriot' crowd ever bother to learn their history?
[Post edited 2 Nov 21:09]
"Why don't the 'patriot' crowd ever bother to learn their history?"
I'd imagine that a bulk of the demographic being as thick as mince has a significant correlation.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 17:17 - Nov 3 by DJR
Assuming Palacios even understands the issues (eg. that money from the Poppy Appeal goes to soldiers who served in the Falklands), I imagine these words from McClean are probably the clincher for virtually all players.
‘Yeah, look, maybe I was a bit naive in thinking you know, with me being the one that took the stand first, it’ll pave way for young Irish lads coming through and it doesn’t seem to be the case.
I speak to a lot of people and I’ve had players say that they don’t believe in wearing the poppy and they wouldn’t wear it, but they just don’t want to the hassle.
So in a way, you know, I was kind of hoping by me doing it that would open a door for them to kind of do that themselves when they’re doing something that they don’t want to do. But probably they’re afraid of the backlash and that’s fine.
You know what you don’t want because it’s horrific abuse and it can be quite taxing. So I understand why they don’t want that. But I’m always of the belief that if you don’t believe in something, then, you know, take a stand.’
Putting it another way, Argentinian players may be happy to take a stance at the World Cup but will realise to do so in the Premier League isn't a good career move.
[Post edited 3 Nov 17:38]
I agree entirely with your last paragraph - I wanted to respond to you along those lines, but couldn't work out how to phrase it.
A player of Palacios' profile and stature will get very different advice than the James McCleans of this world.
Similarly, I dare say the James McCleans of the world could also get away with pointing out that Mao was a dictator.
Not a prophet, or a stone-age man; just a mortal with potential of a superman.
Celtic really are quite a bunch arent they on 18:34 - Nov 3 by Zx1988
I agree entirely with your last paragraph - I wanted to respond to you along those lines, but couldn't work out how to phrase it.
A player of Palacios' profile and stature will get very different advice than the James McCleans of this world.
Similarly, I dare say the James McCleans of the world could also get away with pointing out that Mao was a dictator.
The other difference is that McClean was born in this country, and is alive to the issues.
In my view, the best thing a foreigner can do in another country (and I include myself when abroad) is to act respectfully to the country's traditions, especially on an issue that they probably don't fully understand.
Having said that, I'm just waiting for Palacios to score his first goal for us, and rip off his shirt to reveal a T-shirt with "Las Malvinas son Argentinas" on it.
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