| Shabama Mahmood 12:06 - Nov 5 with 4052 views | DJR |
Leaving aside the unfairness of changing the goalposts for "legal" migrants already here, with all the extra cost and uncertainty that brings, her proposals for those who arrive by small boat but are given refugee status are pretty deplorable.
It's hardly caused a stir but here is the reaction from some quarters.
Imran Hussain, executive director of external affairs at the Refugee Council, said:
"Refugees are being asked to rebuild their lives on a status that expires every 30 months for what could be 30 years. That is unfair and unworkable.
These plans condemn refugees to decades of deep insecurity, unable to lay down roots in Britain and contribute their potential. And there is no evidence to suggest that harming refugee integration will act as a disincentive to refugees fleeing the Taliban or brutal conflicts like Sudan. It also creates another bureaucratic nightmare for a Home Office that already is struggling with poor quality initial decisions on asylum cases which is leading to avoidable costs and delays in the appeals system."
Flora Alexander, executive director of International Rescue Committee UK, said:
"A route to settlement that takes up to 30 years means people will be left in limbo for more than a third of their lifetime. Those who have fled conflict and persecution should have the chance to rebuild their lives, not put them on hold for decades."
And the UNHCR said this.
“An extended qualifying period for settlement for refugees raises significant concerns, particularly when considered alongside the introduction of short-term stay arrangements and changes made last year that would preclude many from ever accessing citizenship.
Taken together, these measures are likely to be detrimental to refugees’ sense of security, belonging and stability, and to impact their ability to contribute and become part of their new communities.
Refugees are not migrants: they have fled their countries because they cannot rely on their protection nor safely return home. For refugees, safety means more than a grant of asylum and settlement has an important role to play.”
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| Shabama Mahmood on 17:34 - Nov 6 with 0 views | DJR |
| Shabama Mahmood on 17:27 - Nov 6 by EdwardStone |
I think the result would be a resounding victory for those who dislike foreigners and who wish that it was still 1957
The Brexit vote proved that you simply cannot hold a referendum with a simple binary yes/no question to try to resolve a very complicated and nuanced issue
There are issues that are more pressing than immigration..... food security, climate change, housing and cost of living spring to mind.
It would be good if we could reduce some of the heat and anger of the immigration question
A referendum would simply solve nothing and yet also make everything worse, the temu flag shagging plastic patriots would be having a field day |
As I suggested in my post, I don't think what you say in your first sentence is correct. [Post edited 6 Nov 17:35]
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| Shabama Mahmood on 17:49 - Nov 6 with 0 views | EdwardStone |
| Shabama Mahmood on 17:34 - Nov 6 by DJR |
As I suggested in my post, I don't think what you say in your first sentence is correct. [Post edited 6 Nov 17:35]
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Ok
You think that people with a reasonable response would prevail?
So much would rest on the exact wording of the question on the ballot paper
But I would hope for the best
While fearing the worst |  | | |
| Shabama Mahmood on 19:08 - Nov 6 with 0 views | J2BLUE |
| Shabama Mahmood on 17:49 - Nov 6 by EdwardStone |
Ok
You think that people with a reasonable response would prevail?
So much would rest on the exact wording of the question on the ballot paper
But I would hope for the best
While fearing the worst |
Do you understand people having legitimate concerns about immigration? |  | | |
| Shabama Mahmood on 19:18 - Nov 6 with 0 views | bartyg |
| Shabama Mahmood on 19:08 - Nov 6 by J2BLUE |
Do you understand people having legitimate concerns about immigration? |
No not really, people actually believe that? |  |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 21:00 - Nov 6 with 0 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Shabama Mahmood on 19:18 - Nov 6 by bartyg |
No not really, people actually believe that? |
Yep. The ignorant, bigots and racists do. |  |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 22:20 - Nov 6 with 0 views | lowhouseblue |
| Shabama Mahmood on 21:00 - Nov 6 by Swansea_Blue |
Yep. The ignorant, bigots and racists do. |
and there you have it. why we are in this mess in 7 words. [Post edited 6 Nov 22:25]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 04:59 - Nov 7 with 0 views | Benters |
| Shabama Mahmood on 13:09 - Nov 6 by bartyg |
Not clearing the racism allegations with posts like this. |
Sorry I thought Africa was a continent?
So it’s racist to call countries by their names now?
What a crazy world the LBF/LAS must live in. |  |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 05:01 - Nov 7 with 0 views | Benters |
| Shabama Mahmood on 22:20 - Nov 6 by lowhouseblue |
and there you have it. why we are in this mess in 7 words. [Post edited 6 Nov 22:25]
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Yep spot on. | |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 06:41 - Nov 7 with 0 views | StokieBlue |
| Shabama Mahmood on 10:58 - Nov 6 by Benters |
Because it’s bull buh. |
If you're going to call published data "bull" you should be forced to produce counter-data and an argument to back it up.
SB |  |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| If you are going to police on 07:30 - Nov 7 with 0 views | Benters |
| Shabama Mahmood on 06:41 - Nov 7 by StokieBlue |
If you're going to call published data "bull" you should be forced to produce counter-data and an argument to back it up.
SB |
This board you have to do it fairly.
I was going to give you an example but I can’t be bothered with the outfall tbh.
I will give you my thoughts on the Dingys coming in,I want it stopped completely this country is going to go bang one day,and unrest is already happening over it.
Now before someone says NHS and my history, those people who cared for me came and into the country in the correct manner.
Some came in already qualified in their trade.I spoke to an Indian Nurse in Basildon Hospital about it.
Fair play to them. | |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 09:31 - Nov 7 with 0 views | EdwardStone |
| Shabama Mahmood on 19:08 - Nov 6 by J2BLUE |
Do you understand people having legitimate concerns about immigration? |
My point is that people's emotions have been whipped into a frenzy by bad faith politicians and troublemakers
Of all the threats to society, immigration shouldn't be in the top 5
If you look at your history books, you might see some uncomfortable parallels with what happened in Germany in the 1930s
I like to think that, here in the UK, we are better than that | | | |
| Shabama Mahmood on 09:49 - Nov 7 with 0 views | DJR |
| Shabama Mahmood on 17:49 - Nov 6 by EdwardStone |
Ok
You think that people with a reasonable response would prevail?
So much would rest on the exact wording of the question on the ballot paper
But I would hope for the best
While fearing the worst |
Another factor to take into account in any sort of referendum is the millions of people of non-British heritage who would be entitled to vote, including an estimated 2.5 million Commonwealth citizens.
As regards the Brexit referendum, EU citizens couldn't vote, and I am sure I read at the time that many Britons of south Asian heritage were relatively relaxed about Brexit because they felt it unfair that people from south Asia were treated less favourably than EU citizens when it came to immigration.
I don't think that we could assume the same in a referendum on immigration more generally. Indeed, it is notable when you watch any gathering of Reform just how few non-white faces there are.
I might add that something similar seems to me to be a factor when it comes to Scottish independence (although I don't think I've ever heard it mentioned) because roughly 10% of the population of Scotland were born in England and Wales. [Post edited 7 Nov 9:50]
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| If you are going to police on 09:52 - Nov 7 with 0 views | StokieBlue |
| If you are going to police on 07:30 - Nov 7 by Benters |
This board you have to do it fairly.
I was going to give you an example but I can’t be bothered with the outfall tbh.
I will give you my thoughts on the Dingys coming in,I want it stopped completely this country is going to go bang one day,and unrest is already happening over it.
Now before someone says NHS and my history, those people who cared for me came and into the country in the correct manner.
Some came in already qualified in their trade.I spoke to an Indian Nurse in Basildon Hospital about it.
Fair play to them. |
That's not what I said.
You've given your opinion, that's fine.
Calling into question data without giving examples of why the data is wrong is not fine.
I await your data disproving the other data as "bull".
SB | |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 10:27 - Nov 7 with 0 views | lowhouseblue |
| Shabama Mahmood on 09:31 - Nov 7 by EdwardStone |
My point is that people's emotions have been whipped into a frenzy by bad faith politicians and troublemakers
Of all the threats to society, immigration shouldn't be in the top 5
If you look at your history books, you might see some uncomfortable parallels with what happened in Germany in the 1930s
I like to think that, here in the UK, we are better than that |
but you don't engage with why the majority of the population think immigration has been too high. instead you you write it all off as "people's emotions have been whipped into a frenzy by bad faith politicians and troublemakers" and make the usual pathetic comparison to nazi germany. it's no different from the previous poster calling everyone racist and bigots. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 10:49 - Nov 7 with 0 views | Benters |
| Shabama Mahmood on 10:27 - Nov 7 by lowhouseblue |
but you don't engage with why the majority of the population think immigration has been too high. instead you you write it all off as "people's emotions have been whipped into a frenzy by bad faith politicians and troublemakers" and make the usual pathetic comparison to nazi germany. it's no different from the previous poster calling everyone racist and bigots. |
This. | |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 10:52 - Nov 7 with 0 views | brazil1982 |
| Shabama Mahmood on 06:41 - Nov 7 by StokieBlue |
If you're going to call published data "bull" you should be forced to produce counter-data and an argument to back it up.
SB |
And how would you "force" a poster on a football forum to produce such data? "Force" - laughable. |  | | |
| Shabama Mahmood on 10:59 - Nov 7 with 0 views | DJR |
| Shabama Mahmood on 10:27 - Nov 7 by lowhouseblue |
but you don't engage with why the majority of the population think immigration has been too high. instead you you write it all off as "people's emotions have been whipped into a frenzy by bad faith politicians and troublemakers" and make the usual pathetic comparison to nazi germany. it's no different from the previous poster calling everyone racist and bigots. |
On the other hand, there is a lot of misunderstanding about immigration which colours people's views. Indeed, it seems to be an issue where it seems to be impossible to have a rational debate.
https://yougov.com/en-gb/artic
"A new YouGov poll testing attitudes to several immigration scenarios has found that almost half of Britons (45%) say they would support “admitting no more new migrants, and requiring large numbers of migrants who came to the UK in recent years to leave” – a figure which rises to 86% of Reform UK voters, but also encompasses sizeable minorities of Labour and Lib Dem voters (27% apiece)."
"Key to understanding this finding is the belief among the public that immigration to the UK is primarily ‘illegal’ rather than ‘legal’. Our research shows that almost half of Britons (47%) think there are more migrants staying in the UK illegally rather than legally, including fully a third of the public (32%) who think the illegal figure is “much higher”."
"Crucially, this view is held by 72% of those who want to see mass removals. However, these perceptions appear to be wide of the mark.
Estimates of the population of illegal migrants living in the UK range from 120,000 to 1.3 million, with Reform UK’s Zia Yusuf recently putting the figure at 1.2 million.
Regardless of which figure from this range is chosen, it does not come close to the number of migrants living in the UK legally, with 2021/2022 census data putting the entire foreign-born population of the UK at 10.7 million."
The other findings in the poll are also interesting and suggest the headline finding is not necessarily as hard line as it seems. [Post edited 7 Nov 11:06]
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| Shabama Mahmood on 11:29 - Nov 7 with 0 views | Benters |
| Shabama Mahmood on 10:52 - Nov 7 by brazil1982 |
And how would you "force" a poster on a football forum to produce such data? "Force" - laughable. |
You don’t know ? | |
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| Shabama Mahmood on 12:29 - Nov 7 with 0 views | J2BLUE |
| Shabama Mahmood on 09:31 - Nov 7 by EdwardStone |
My point is that people's emotions have been whipped into a frenzy by bad faith politicians and troublemakers
Of all the threats to society, immigration shouldn't be in the top 5
If you look at your history books, you might see some uncomfortable parallels with what happened in Germany in the 1930s
I like to think that, here in the UK, we are better than that |
Do we live in a democracy or not?
In your opinion immigration is irrelevant. To most of the country it clearly isn't.
I have a degree in history and have studied that period of history extensively.
You would like to think we are 'better' but everyone is shot down with accusations of racism and bigotry. Wouldn't it be nice to have a sensible debate about immigration, our culture and the future of the country where both sides hear each other out?
I will stick my neck out here. I think, broadly, for those who say immigration is an issue this is their perceived problem. I won't see most of the nuclear reaction because I have them div listed.
Forget Brexit. I don't think that was necessarily about immigration as much as it was just giving the establishment a black eye. I think the issue many people have is that we are getting lots of young men who have been born and raised in a very different culture to ours arrive on our shores and then dumped on poorer areas. I doubt there are many placed near country estates. That's not meant as a dig, but I am sure it's true.
Whether people identify as Christian or not, Christianity has shaped our country. Islam is the fastest growing religion in both the UK and the world. By having lots of young men arrive from countries with a very different culture to ours it is going to have a big impact on our demographics in the future. I really don't see how people can support our liberal democracy and not have any concern about dumping ever increasing numbers of young men raised to view women as second class citizens and LGBT people as having some sort of defect in deprived areas. Usually lots of migrants in a very small area so they quite naturally stick together which older people and women find intimidating.
This is not about 'brown people'. It's not even about Muslims. It's clearly entirely possible to be British and Muslim in equal measure. It's entirely possible to be Muslim and to share the values of our country. I would happily support British citizenship for the Afghan interpreters (who I believe we utterly betrayed) or the Kurds who literally fought ISIS for us. To just dismiss concerns about undocumented migrants densely packed into deprived areas well away from you though is just wrong in my opinion.
Of course we should have a humane and sensible pathway for asylum seekers. Of course we should allow immigrants who share our values and want to contribute to our society. I think it's ok though to have a little bit of concern about the way things currently are.
Usually when I relent and post something in detail like this people say yes you make some fair points and that is reasonable. Then next time the subject comes up we go right back to name calling and mockery.
Again, the bits above about country estates are not meant as a dig. I just think it's a fair point. You are one of the ever decreasing number of posters on here I like and respect. I wanted to add that in case the tone or intent comes across differently. Everything above is posted in good faith. | | | |
| Shabama Mahmood on 13:42 - Nov 7 with 0 views | EdwardStone |
| Shabama Mahmood on 12:29 - Nov 7 by J2BLUE |
Do we live in a democracy or not?
In your opinion immigration is irrelevant. To most of the country it clearly isn't.
I have a degree in history and have studied that period of history extensively.
You would like to think we are 'better' but everyone is shot down with accusations of racism and bigotry. Wouldn't it be nice to have a sensible debate about immigration, our culture and the future of the country where both sides hear each other out?
I will stick my neck out here. I think, broadly, for those who say immigration is an issue this is their perceived problem. I won't see most of the nuclear reaction because I have them div listed.
Forget Brexit. I don't think that was necessarily about immigration as much as it was just giving the establishment a black eye. I think the issue many people have is that we are getting lots of young men who have been born and raised in a very different culture to ours arrive on our shores and then dumped on poorer areas. I doubt there are many placed near country estates. That's not meant as a dig, but I am sure it's true.
Whether people identify as Christian or not, Christianity has shaped our country. Islam is the fastest growing religion in both the UK and the world. By having lots of young men arrive from countries with a very different culture to ours it is going to have a big impact on our demographics in the future. I really don't see how people can support our liberal democracy and not have any concern about dumping ever increasing numbers of young men raised to view women as second class citizens and LGBT people as having some sort of defect in deprived areas. Usually lots of migrants in a very small area so they quite naturally stick together which older people and women find intimidating.
This is not about 'brown people'. It's not even about Muslims. It's clearly entirely possible to be British and Muslim in equal measure. It's entirely possible to be Muslim and to share the values of our country. I would happily support British citizenship for the Afghan interpreters (who I believe we utterly betrayed) or the Kurds who literally fought ISIS for us. To just dismiss concerns about undocumented migrants densely packed into deprived areas well away from you though is just wrong in my opinion.
Of course we should have a humane and sensible pathway for asylum seekers. Of course we should allow immigrants who share our values and want to contribute to our society. I think it's ok though to have a little bit of concern about the way things currently are.
Usually when I relent and post something in detail like this people say yes you make some fair points and that is reasonable. Then next time the subject comes up we go right back to name calling and mockery.
Again, the bits above about country estates are not meant as a dig. I just think it's a fair point. You are one of the ever decreasing number of posters on here I like and respect. I wanted to add that in case the tone or intent comes across differently. Everything above is posted in good faith. |
I have never doubted your good faith and I appreciate your kind words
I think we live in a flawed democracy, I don't really have much faith in our elected representatives either at national or local level.... most seem well intentioned, regrettably few seem clever and effective. I am not a great believer in this concept of endless referendums; it is a very reactive way to plan a course through some very complicated and nuanced issues in a troubled world. Instead, I would hope for clear leadership, a firm hand on the tiller and policies that are progressive, fair and reasonable
I have lived and worked in a number of Muslim countries; UAE, Oman, Egypt and Turkey, and without exception I have been welcomed with genuine warmth and kindness; I feel sad that such tolerence isn't always reciprocated
If Christianity has shaped our country, I think we could agree that it has done a pretty sketchy job.... we perhaps seem to be a little lacking in a few key performance indicators
I don't think that immigration is irrelevant. I do think it is a toxic issue and the debate is dangerously divisive.... the discussion needs to be about numbers, who and how they integrate. Instead, we have unrealistic and cruel demands for zero immigration coupled with immediate forced repatriation of those with brown or black skin.
I can see why one might hope that a calm and polite discussion about immigration might be welcome, but I find it increasingly difficult to have sympathy with views of those who seem to have no sympathy..... I have limited tolerance for those with zero tolerance.
Btw....I don't actually live on a country estate. I don't have staff....all just a slightly amusing affectation.
But next summer the bbq will be hot, the beers will be cold and the pizza oven will be pizzaing.... you will find a warm welcome if you pop along. Last weekend in June. [Post edited 7 Nov 13:52]
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