| The Defence of the Nation 12:36 - Jun 11 with 4149 views | Churchman |
I know I have endlessly banged on about the Labour government’s lack of interest in defending this country and it seems the now ex-defence Secretary agrees. John Healey has resigned.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/liv
This is an absolute disgrace. The first duty of any government should be to defend the country against external threat (and internal). The Labour Party just isn’t interested. They don’t care so while cutting the budget in real terms, they have clamped hands over ears and ignored the threats that have been present for years. The scrap yards have never been busier.
Thanks Sir Kier, thanks Rachel.
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| The Defence of the Nation on 13:00 - Jun 11 with 2400 views | GlasgowBlue |
UK Ranks Second-to-Last in New NATO Ranking. |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 13:07 - Jun 11 with 2374 views | Radlett_blue |
It's hard to blame Labour specifically for this as defence spending had declined for years under the Tories, although we weren't helped by Gordon Brown landing us with 2 white elephant aircraft carriers.
Right now, almost everyone agrees that the UK needs to spend meaningfully more on defence. But what no one seems to agree on is how this will be funded. What do you cut back, or what taxes do you increase? |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 13:10 - Jun 11 with 2349 views | giant_stow |
| The Defence of the Nation on 13:07 - Jun 11 by Radlett_blue |
It's hard to blame Labour specifically for this as defence spending had declined for years under the Tories, although we weren't helped by Gordon Brown landing us with 2 white elephant aircraft carriers.
Right now, almost everyone agrees that the UK needs to spend meaningfully more on defence. But what no one seems to agree on is how this will be funded. What do you cut back, or what taxes do you increase? |
I was listening to a good debate on LBC on this last night on the way to football practice. There are some really tough choices, no doubt. I liked the Liberal's idea of defence bond on the show, although this was rightly countered as just another form of borrowing. |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 13:13 - Jun 11 with 2295 views | lowhouseblue |
| The Defence of the Nation on 13:07 - Jun 11 by Radlett_blue |
It's hard to blame Labour specifically for this as defence spending had declined for years under the Tories, although we weren't helped by Gordon Brown landing us with 2 white elephant aircraft carriers.
Right now, almost everyone agrees that the UK needs to spend meaningfully more on defence. But what no one seems to agree on is how this will be funded. What do you cut back, or what taxes do you increase? |
trouble is, for all his very good points, starmer, cowed as he is by some of his back benchers, really isn't good at making hard decisions. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 13:26 - Jun 11 with 2235 views | DarkBrandon |
I agree the government have been abject in this.
Two further factors. One the promise not to raise any of the main taxes completely hamstrings them. Even if they wanted to invest more that can’t. Two, Jeremy Hunt’s two, 2p NI cuts just before the election which we couldn’t afford salted the earth and meant Labour had to put up what taxes they hadn’t promised not to (employers NI) just to stand still. |  | | |
| The Defence of the Nation on 13:42 - Jun 11 with 2180 views | Radlett_blue |
| The Defence of the Nation on 13:26 - Jun 11 by DarkBrandon |
I agree the government have been abject in this.
Two further factors. One the promise not to raise any of the main taxes completely hamstrings them. Even if they wanted to invest more that can’t. Two, Jeremy Hunt’s two, 2p NI cuts just before the election which we couldn’t afford salted the earth and meant Labour had to put up what taxes they hadn’t promised not to (employers NI) just to stand still. |
This is the biggest problem the UK faces. It seems politically impossible to increase the standard rate of income tax, so whoever is in government is condemned to run around looking for cuts to spending somewhere or inventing spurious taxes. | |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 15:18 - Jun 11 with 2049 views | Leaky |
| The Defence of the Nation on 13:42 - Jun 11 by Radlett_blue |
This is the biggest problem the UK faces. It seems politically impossible to increase the standard rate of income tax, so whoever is in government is condemned to run around looking for cuts to spending somewhere or inventing spurious taxes. |
Or make better use of the tax we already pay |  | | |
| The Defence of the Nation on 15:47 - Jun 11 with 1975 views | giant_stow |
| The Defence of the Nation on 15:18 - Jun 11 by Leaky |
Or make better use of the tax we already pay |
I think there's truth in that - we seem to have one of the largest military budgets in the world afterall. Maybe we can ask Ukraine to come and tell us how to do things cheap and well. | |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 16:25 - Jun 11 with 1867 views | positivity |
| The Defence of the Nation on 13:42 - Jun 11 by Radlett_blue |
This is the biggest problem the UK faces. It seems politically impossible to increase the standard rate of income tax, so whoever is in government is condemned to run around looking for cuts to spending somewhere or inventing spurious taxes. |
if you sell it as 1p on income tax to pay for the nhs/defence, i think it'd be a popular policy.
if we want it, we have to pay for it, there's no farage style magic money tree to bail us out |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 16:29 - Jun 11 with 1835 views | Benters |
| The Defence of the Nation on 16:28 - Jun 11 by DJR |
If they hadn't knocked £150 off, you'd be paying £308.  |
Balls  |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 16:33 - Jun 11 with 1807 views | J2BLUE |
| The Defence of the Nation on 13:07 - Jun 11 by Radlett_blue |
It's hard to blame Labour specifically for this as defence spending had declined for years under the Tories, although we weren't helped by Gordon Brown landing us with 2 white elephant aircraft carriers.
Right now, almost everyone agrees that the UK needs to spend meaningfully more on defence. But what no one seems to agree on is how this will be funded. What do you cut back, or what taxes do you increase? |
Should have included reversing the 2p NI cut in their manifesto with the money going to the military and the NHS. |  | | |
| The Defence of the Nation on 17:04 - Jun 11 with 1740 views | Swansea_Blue |
You don’t really defend a nation through defence spending though in the modern age. It’s only a small part of the overall security picture imo, and a last resort/deterrent. When was the last time we had to physically repel an attack against us using the military? Things like cyber and terrorism that are a much more of a regular threat and do more to undermine, threaten and financially attack us.
Not that I’m disagreeing that the cuts haven’t been bad, but I don’t think we should be prioritising money on arms over the wellbeing and wider security of our population. |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 17:07 - Jun 11 with 1734 views | Perublue |
| The Defence of the Nation on 17:04 - Jun 11 by Swansea_Blue |
You don’t really defend a nation through defence spending though in the modern age. It’s only a small part of the overall security picture imo, and a last resort/deterrent. When was the last time we had to physically repel an attack against us using the military? Things like cyber and terrorism that are a much more of a regular threat and do more to undermine, threaten and financially attack us.
Not that I’m disagreeing that the cuts haven’t been bad, but I don’t think we should be prioritising money on arms over the wellbeing and wider security of our population. |
Tell that to Ukraine. |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 21:29 - Jun 11 with 1615 views | noggin |
| The Defence of the Nation on 17:07 - Jun 11 by Perublue |
Tell that to Ukraine. |
Not really the same though, is it? |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 21:33 - Jun 11 with 1590 views | GlasgowBlue |
Al Carns has gone. Massive loss to th government
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| The Defence of the Nation on 21:43 - Jun 11 with 1542 views | NthQldITFC |
| The Defence of the Nation on 21:33 - Jun 11 by GlasgowBlue |
Al Carns has gone. Massive loss to th government
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It's a damning letter which seems to reflect what many are saying.
Can Starmer last long enough for Burnham to get in and challenge him?
I hope so. Just.
Not sure Burnham is the answer, but the present sh!tshow can't go on much longer. |  |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 21:47 - Jun 11 with 1511 views | Churchman |
| The Defence of the Nation on 17:04 - Jun 11 by Swansea_Blue |
You don’t really defend a nation through defence spending though in the modern age. It’s only a small part of the overall security picture imo, and a last resort/deterrent. When was the last time we had to physically repel an attack against us using the military? Things like cyber and terrorism that are a much more of a regular threat and do more to undermine, threaten and financially attack us.
Not that I’m disagreeing that the cuts haven’t been bad, but I don’t think we should be prioritising money on arms over the wellbeing and wider security of our population. |
So a bit like Captain Rum believing that you don’t need a crew when every other captain thinks otherwise, you don’t think we need defence when just about every other country in Europe bar Spain thinks we do. Fair enough, it’s a view.
The reality is Labour doesn’t believe in defence or defending this country. It’s not interested and never has been. That’s crystal clear from today’s events. So why not scrap the lot? Use the defence budget for other priorities, get the civil servants on benefits and appeal to the totalitarians and authoritarians better nature. They might as well. | | | |
| The Defence of the Nation on 21:58 - Jun 11 with 1477 views | redrickstuhaart |
| The Defence of the Nation on 21:47 - Jun 11 by Churchman |
So a bit like Captain Rum believing that you don’t need a crew when every other captain thinks otherwise, you don’t think we need defence when just about every other country in Europe bar Spain thinks we do. Fair enough, it’s a view.
The reality is Labour doesn’t believe in defence or defending this country. It’s not interested and never has been. That’s crystal clear from today’s events. So why not scrap the lot? Use the defence budget for other priorities, get the civil servants on benefits and appeal to the totalitarians and authoritarians better nature. They might as well. |
And yet they are doing more than previous regime did in their 14 years of hollowing out the forces, such that we need to do so much now. | |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 22:15 - Jun 11 with 1419 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The Defence of the Nation on 17:07 - Jun 11 by Perublue |
Tell that to Ukraine. |
(a ) we're not Ukraine
(b) they've reinvented warfare on a shoestring (compared to traditional military spending)
So if anything they prove the point - you don't need a hugely expensive traditional military to defend your borders against an invading neighbour, even if that neighbour is one of the supposed superpowers. Plus I don't think there's much of a military threat to us from Ireland, France, Belgium and the Netherlands. | |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 22:20 - Jun 11 with 1388 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The Defence of the Nation on 22:15 - Jun 11 by Swansea_Blue |
(a ) we're not Ukraine
(b) they've reinvented warfare on a shoestring (compared to traditional military spending)
So if anything they prove the point - you don't need a hugely expensive traditional military to defend your borders against an invading neighbour, even if that neighbour is one of the supposed superpowers. Plus I don't think there's much of a military threat to us from Ireland, France, Belgium and the Netherlands. |
Do you realise how much money the UK, Europeans and Americans have given to Ukraine just to keep them in the game.
£21.8 billion from the UK, €75.2 billion from the EU and $66.9 from the USA. And I believe those figures are up to Spring 2025.
Certainly not done on a shoestring. | |
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| The Defence of the Nation on 22:40 - Jun 11 with 1326 views | Sarge |
| The Defence of the Nation on 17:04 - Jun 11 by Swansea_Blue |
You don’t really defend a nation through defence spending though in the modern age. It’s only a small part of the overall security picture imo, and a last resort/deterrent. When was the last time we had to physically repel an attack against us using the military? Things like cyber and terrorism that are a much more of a regular threat and do more to undermine, threaten and financially attack us.
Not that I’m disagreeing that the cuts haven’t been bad, but I don’t think we should be prioritising money on arms over the wellbeing and wider security of our population. |
That’s not really true. Defence spending covers far more than just buying weapons systems and ammo. It covers cyber defences, space control, ISR, upgrading IT systems, protecting comms systems, PNT, and so on and so forth. All of those things are under threat from nation states and things like space debris and are funded by either in part or in full by defence spending. | | | |
| The Defence of the Nation on 23:42 - Jun 11 with 1228 views | Churchman |
| The Defence of the Nation on 21:58 - Jun 11 by redrickstuhaart |
And yet they are doing more than previous regime did in their 14 years of hollowing out the forces, such that we need to do so much now. |
They are continuing the policies of previous regimes and pursuing the ‘peace dividend’ until there’s nothing left.
In what sense are they doing more? Telling people that one day they’ll increase spending a fraction but before that lumping in the cost of Ukraine and all the security services into their budget means real cuts. That is not ‘doing more’.
Those that resigned today recognise the Party’s lack of support for Defence of this country and acted accordingly. Are they and most of Europe wrong? | | | |
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