| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) 17:24 - Apr 6 with 20179 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:15 - Apr 10 with 814 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 11:37 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
Well of course you think that, I'm not remotely surprised you think that. I make you wrong and I've explained why, as have others. We can leave it there I think. |
You're wrong. It doesn't matter how many times you or others say it, it's just simple logic.
If supporting/endorsing an entity means you support/endorse all of their views... then that makes all Ipswich fans racist. If the club endorses racism, as you and other suggest, then anyone who endorses the club by extension endorses racism.
See how silly it gets when you just extend the logic slightly?
You asked me to show my workings and I did. I'd love to see you workings to get out of the above before we "leave it there". |  |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:29 - Apr 10 with 780 views | Herbivore |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:15 - Apr 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You're wrong. It doesn't matter how many times you or others say it, it's just simple logic.
If supporting/endorsing an entity means you support/endorse all of their views... then that makes all Ipswich fans racist. If the club endorses racism, as you and other suggest, then anyone who endorses the club by extension endorses racism.
See how silly it gets when you just extend the logic slightly?
You asked me to show my workings and I did. I'd love to see you workings to get out of the above before we "leave it there". |
Yeah, that's not logic mate. Well it kind of is in that it's a logical fallacy. |  |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:36 - Apr 10 with 750 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:14 - Apr 10 by Camul123 |
Do you think Farage believes that non-white members of Reform belong in the UK? |
I've no idea.
I've no idea why a non-white person would join Reform either.
I'm making a wider point, clearly, that this episode with Farage doesn't mean the club supports all of his views. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:39 - Apr 10 with 749 views | Blueschev |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:36 - Apr 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've no idea.
I've no idea why a non-white person would join Reform either.
I'm making a wider point, clearly, that this episode with Farage doesn't mean the club supports all of his views. |
It does imply however, that the club are happy to be associated with his views. |  | | |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:41 - Apr 10 with 728 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:29 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
Yeah, that's not logic mate. Well it kind of is in that it's a logical fallacy. |
Which logical fallacy is it?
The suggestion is that by endorsing Farage the club endorses racism.
The logic therefore is that one entity endorsing another means they endorse all of that first entity's views.
If Ipswich Town endorses racism, then the logic follows that anyone who endorses Ipswich Town endorses all of their views, one of which is endorsing racism. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:49 - Apr 10 with 703 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:39 - Apr 10 by Blueschev |
It does imply however, that the club are happy to be associated with his views. |
It implies the club are happy to be associated with him, not particularly any of his individual views. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:54 - Apr 10 with 697 views | Blueschev |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:49 - Apr 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It implies the club are happy to be associated with him, not particularly any of his individual views. |
Everything he does in the public eye, including his propaganda piece made with the clubs apparent blessing, is to promote his individual views. What are you talking about? | | | |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 13:26 - Apr 10 with 669 views | bartyg |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 20:08 - Apr 8 by itfcsuth |
The only reason I posted was because somebody was accused of racism without real substance, the same thing that I was accused of last week - which was a scumbag move.
Typing I was only in error, hence I changed it to they. To be honest, I had no idea what you were on about at first.
I don’t particularly care either way, I don’t have any affiliation to anyone on here, I’m not trying to defend any other posters on here, I was just making an observational comment on something that didn’t sit right with me. |
Late on this but this is class. It is of course only marginally better to be someone committed to the practice of defending those accused of the worst injustice in the world (being called racist) than it is to defend your own racist sockpuppet. |  |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 13:33 - Apr 10 with 627 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:54 - Apr 10 by Blueschev |
Everything he does in the public eye, including his propaganda piece made with the clubs apparent blessing, is to promote his individual views. What are you talking about? |
I'm talking about what the club is apparently promoting of those individual views - and when I use the word individual here I mean his separate views, not him as an individual. You can't pick and choose what views of his the club are apparently supporting, so by hosting him you're suggesting the club endorses all of them. I am saying that doesn't follow. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 13:55 - Apr 10 with 599 views | Herbivore |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 12:41 - Apr 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Which logical fallacy is it?
The suggestion is that by endorsing Farage the club endorses racism.
The logic therefore is that one entity endorsing another means they endorse all of that first entity's views.
If Ipswich Town endorses racism, then the logic follows that anyone who endorses Ipswich Town endorses all of their views, one of which is endorsing racism. |
Chain arguments are notoriously problematic and often fallacious and you are proposing a form of chain argument. Consider the following: all people who like football are football fans, all Norwich fans like football, therefore all football fans are Norwich fans. You are doing similar with your argument.
But your argument also explodes when it hits reality. The clubs actions (and some of its subsequent inaction) have done nothing to suggest that they want to distance themselves from Farage or Reform. It is clear he was welcomed at the club, given free merch related to him becoming PM, with the club's image then being used alongside Farage to promote him and Reform. Apart from a weak statement about being an inclusive club, nothing that's happened has created much distance between the club and Farage/Reform, and actions speak louder than words. Town supporters, meanwhile, have made it very clear through words and actions that they don't agree with the club's actions in supporting Farage and associating our club with him. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 14:20 - Apr 10 with 553 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 13:55 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
Chain arguments are notoriously problematic and often fallacious and you are proposing a form of chain argument. Consider the following: all people who like football are football fans, all Norwich fans like football, therefore all football fans are Norwich fans. You are doing similar with your argument.
But your argument also explodes when it hits reality. The clubs actions (and some of its subsequent inaction) have done nothing to suggest that they want to distance themselves from Farage or Reform. It is clear he was welcomed at the club, given free merch related to him becoming PM, with the club's image then being used alongside Farage to promote him and Reform. Apart from a weak statement about being an inclusive club, nothing that's happened has created much distance between the club and Farage/Reform, and actions speak louder than words. Town supporters, meanwhile, have made it very clear through words and actions that they don't agree with the club's actions in supporting Farage and associating our club with him. |
I'm not doing a chain argument though.
I'm simply saying if endorsing an entity means endorsing all of that entity's views, then the same holds if the entity is Ipswich supporters and ITFC's (apparent) views.
You can't say the 'endorsment rule' only applies to the club and Farage's views. That would clearly be disingenuous.
Move the argument away from the club and it still breaks down;
My dad was a lovely man. Kind, caring. Gave up his own time to help others, such as mowing lawns for older/housebound people.
However, as with many people of his generation, he was a little bit racist.
Now, I wrote and performed a poem at his funeral, quite literally eulogising him.
I endorsed him. Does that mean I endorse racism?
The lack of distancing is a problem, I agree. I wonder if they think enough damange has been done, and as you say actions speak louder than words so perhaps they think riding it out and letting it die away is best. Or they don't want to upset Reform-supporting Town fans.
Either way, I don't think it follows that they endorse racism. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 14:35 - Apr 10 with 550 views | Herbivore |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 14:20 - Apr 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm not doing a chain argument though.
I'm simply saying if endorsing an entity means endorsing all of that entity's views, then the same holds if the entity is Ipswich supporters and ITFC's (apparent) views.
You can't say the 'endorsment rule' only applies to the club and Farage's views. That would clearly be disingenuous.
Move the argument away from the club and it still breaks down;
My dad was a lovely man. Kind, caring. Gave up his own time to help others, such as mowing lawns for older/housebound people.
However, as with many people of his generation, he was a little bit racist.
Now, I wrote and performed a poem at his funeral, quite literally eulogising him.
I endorsed him. Does that mean I endorse racism?
The lack of distancing is a problem, I agree. I wonder if they think enough damange has been done, and as you say actions speak louder than words so perhaps they think riding it out and letting it die away is best. Or they don't want to upset Reform-supporting Town fans.
Either way, I don't think it follows that they endorse racism. |
It is a chain argument because you're effectively saying if Farage is a racist and if Town endorse Farage they endorse racism and if Town fans endorse Town then Town fans endorse Farage/racism. It's very much a chain argument.
I'm sure your dad was a lovely man but comparing you doing a poetic eulogy for your dad who was a bit old school racist with the club publicly promoting Farage and Reform is comparing apples and oranges. There are so many differences in the two that it's not a helpful comparison. For a start, you loved your dad and it's a personal relationship not akin to the relationship between Town and Farage. You can also separate the man from the views with a private individual like your dad much more easily than you can separate Farage, a public figure, from his views. Farage is known as a racist grifter and that's what he's based his entire public persona on. I imagine nobody viewed your dad as a racist even if he held a few questionable views. It's just not remotely the same thing.
As it goes, I am not sure it's accurate to say Town endorse racism but they absolutely endorsed a known racist and in my view that's just as bad and is why I stayed away on Monday and will stay away again next weekend. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 14:46 - Apr 10 with 505 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 14:35 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
It is a chain argument because you're effectively saying if Farage is a racist and if Town endorse Farage they endorse racism and if Town fans endorse Town then Town fans endorse Farage/racism. It's very much a chain argument.
I'm sure your dad was a lovely man but comparing you doing a poetic eulogy for your dad who was a bit old school racist with the club publicly promoting Farage and Reform is comparing apples and oranges. There are so many differences in the two that it's not a helpful comparison. For a start, you loved your dad and it's a personal relationship not akin to the relationship between Town and Farage. You can also separate the man from the views with a private individual like your dad much more easily than you can separate Farage, a public figure, from his views. Farage is known as a racist grifter and that's what he's based his entire public persona on. I imagine nobody viewed your dad as a racist even if he held a few questionable views. It's just not remotely the same thing.
As it goes, I am not sure it's accurate to say Town endorse racism but they absolutely endorsed a known racist and in my view that's just as bad and is why I stayed away on Monday and will stay away again next weekend. |
I'm not comparing them. I'm extending the logic.
You can support/host/aid a person or institution without endorsing every one of that person's or institution's views.
Anyway, you've said "I am not sure it's accurate to say Town endorse racism" so you seem to be agreeing with me, ultimately.
I would dispute that endorsing racism is "just as bad" as hosting a known racist. Still not a good look, but not the same IMO. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 14:52 - Apr 10 with 509 views | Herbivore |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 14:46 - Apr 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm not comparing them. I'm extending the logic.
You can support/host/aid a person or institution without endorsing every one of that person's or institution's views.
Anyway, you've said "I am not sure it's accurate to say Town endorse racism" so you seem to be agreeing with me, ultimately.
I would dispute that endorsing racism is "just as bad" as hosting a known racist. Still not a good look, but not the same IMO. |
We didn't just host him though, we went further than that. Our actions weren't neutral. We gifted him shirts to use for promotional material and enabled him to use an association with the club for promotional purposes. Hence I would argue we endorsed a known racist and his racist political party, and for me that's not exactly in a different ballpark to endorsing racism. Appreciate that you disagree and we aren't going to convince each other here. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:01 - Apr 10 with 472 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 14:52 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
We didn't just host him though, we went further than that. Our actions weren't neutral. We gifted him shirts to use for promotional material and enabled him to use an association with the club for promotional purposes. Hence I would argue we endorsed a known racist and his racist political party, and for me that's not exactly in a different ballpark to endorsing racism. Appreciate that you disagree and we aren't going to convince each other here. |
I used "hosting" for want of a better word. We all know what went on.
We'll have to agree to differ on endorsing a known racist being in the same ballpark as endorsing racism. Farage has lots of views (many of which are abhorrent). I'm not sure why we need to single that one out particularly as the one the club apparently endorses.
And for all we know they simply wanted to keep him sweet as he might be the next PM, rather than endorsing anything. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:04 - Apr 10 with 483 views | Herbivore |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:01 - Apr 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I used "hosting" for want of a better word. We all know what went on.
We'll have to agree to differ on endorsing a known racist being in the same ballpark as endorsing racism. Farage has lots of views (many of which are abhorrent). I'm not sure why we need to single that one out particularly as the one the club apparently endorses.
And for all we know they simply wanted to keep him sweet as he might be the next PM, rather than endorsing anything. |
I do find it staggering the lengths you're going to in order to excuse the club endorsing a racist grifter like Farage, but there we go. As I said, we're not going to agree on this. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:12 - Apr 10 with 460 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:04 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
I do find it staggering the lengths you're going to in order to excuse the club endorsing a racist grifter like Farage, but there we go. As I said, we're not going to agree on this. |
I haven't excused it, I've said it's not an endorsement of racism, which you seemed to agree with. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:21 - Apr 10 with 444 views | Herbivore |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:12 - Apr 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I haven't excused it, I've said it's not an endorsement of racism, which you seemed to agree with. |
Hmmm. You keep going on about the fact Farage holds lots of views so why are we focusing on the racism as though that's just a sideshow. It's like asking why people keep focusing on the fact Jeffrey Epstein is a paedo when condemning the artists formerly known as Prince Andrew for associating with him, when actually he was also a very successful financier and really knew how to throw a party. We can split hairs all day over whether it's marginally better to endorse a known racist than it is to endorse racism but let's not downplay what Farage is or the damage done by associating with him. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:37 - Apr 10 with 397 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:21 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
Hmmm. You keep going on about the fact Farage holds lots of views so why are we focusing on the racism as though that's just a sideshow. It's like asking why people keep focusing on the fact Jeffrey Epstein is a paedo when condemning the artists formerly known as Prince Andrew for associating with him, when actually he was also a very successful financier and really knew how to throw a party. We can split hairs all day over whether it's marginally better to endorse a known racist than it is to endorse racism but let's not downplay what Farage is or the damage done by associating with him. |
I've not downplayed anything, I've said it's not an endorsement of racism. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:43 - Apr 10 with 380 views | J2BLUE |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:04 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
I do find it staggering the lengths you're going to in order to excuse the club endorsing a racist grifter like Farage, but there we go. As I said, we're not going to agree on this. |
Not sure they endorsed anyone. It's clear that 1-2 in high positions fangirled over Farage and gave him the VIP treatment but saying anyone endorsed him is harsh.
Ashton made a very, very stupid mistake that he should have seen coming a mile off and his reaction of fronting it out was disappointing but you have to say, largely effective. Not condoning it, just saying you can see why people take that approach. It has largely blown over now. He's still in danger of losing his job in the summer IMO but if we go up and work gets started immediately on the new season he will likely get away with it.
TL; DR: Ashton was very, very, very, very stupid but didn't endorse anyone. IMO. |  |
| "I am a genuine believer in free speech, in the real sense, not the left wing sense, the 'I think free speech is important for people I agree with' Guardian readers" - Jonathan Pie ///// "These middle class, perma-offended, virtue-signalling woke w@nkers have declared that the great unwashed are just one tasteless joke away from turning into fascists" - Jonathan Pie ///// "In a sense, the political left’s attempts to silence ideas they cannot, or will not, debate are a confession of intellectual bankruptcy" - Thomas Sowell
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:57 - Apr 10 with 351 views | lowhouseblue |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:43 - Apr 10 by J2BLUE |
Not sure they endorsed anyone. It's clear that 1-2 in high positions fangirled over Farage and gave him the VIP treatment but saying anyone endorsed him is harsh.
Ashton made a very, very stupid mistake that he should have seen coming a mile off and his reaction of fronting it out was disappointing but you have to say, largely effective. Not condoning it, just saying you can see why people take that approach. It has largely blown over now. He's still in danger of losing his job in the summer IMO but if we go up and work gets started immediately on the new season he will likely get away with it.
TL; DR: Ashton was very, very, very, very stupid but didn't endorse anyone. IMO. |
not really sure he was ever in danger of losing his job over this. the lesson is that the ott reaction of a group on here is representative of nothing other than a generally ott group on here. were he to do the same again - with farage or any other controversial chancer - then he might have a problem, but i'm sure he's bright enough to know now not to. it was essentially a very localised storm in a tea cup and, while naive and a bit stupid, no damage has been done to the club. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:58 - Apr 10 with 351 views | DJR |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:57 - Apr 10 by lowhouseblue |
not really sure he was ever in danger of losing his job over this. the lesson is that the ott reaction of a group on here is representative of nothing other than a generally ott group on here. were he to do the same again - with farage or any other controversial chancer - then he might have a problem, but i'm sure he's bright enough to know now not to. it was essentially a very localised storm in a tea cup and, while naive and a bit stupid, no damage has been done to the club. |
You are Mark Ashton and I claim my £5.  |  | | |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 16:00 - Apr 10 with 342 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:21 - Apr 10 by Herbivore |
Hmmm. You keep going on about the fact Farage holds lots of views so why are we focusing on the racism as though that's just a sideshow. It's like asking why people keep focusing on the fact Jeffrey Epstein is a paedo when condemning the artists formerly known as Prince Andrew for associating with him, when actually he was also a very successful financier and really knew how to throw a party. We can split hairs all day over whether it's marginally better to endorse a known racist than it is to endorse racism but let's not downplay what Farage is or the damage done by associating with him. |
Don't get sucked in the way I used to Herbs. You'll be chained to this thread for the next five weeks. And God help you if you don't reply within a certain time frame. |  |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 16:04 - Apr 10 with 333 views | Herbivore |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:43 - Apr 10 by J2BLUE |
Not sure they endorsed anyone. It's clear that 1-2 in high positions fangirled over Farage and gave him the VIP treatment but saying anyone endorsed him is harsh.
Ashton made a very, very stupid mistake that he should have seen coming a mile off and his reaction of fronting it out was disappointing but you have to say, largely effective. Not condoning it, just saying you can see why people take that approach. It has largely blown over now. He's still in danger of losing his job in the summer IMO but if we go up and work gets started immediately on the new season he will likely get away with it.
TL; DR: Ashton was very, very, very, very stupid but didn't endorse anyone. IMO. |
I've explained several times in this thread why I see it as an endorsement. There's a reason all those memes of Deportman Road cropped up online within minutes of Reform tweeting Farage gurning with a Farage 10 Town shirt by our pitch and in our changing room. You disagree and you're very entitled to, but I stand by the arguments I've outlined in this thread. | |
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| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 16:05 - Apr 10 with 328 views | Herbivore |
| Great result. Ashton out! (n/t) on 15:58 - Apr 10 by DJR |
You are Mark Ashton and I claim my £5. |
Mark Ashton's not THAT stupid. | |
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